tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3623603988319454163.post5898360656379867874..comments2023-03-24T01:22:04.280-07:00Comments on Poseidon Awoke: Leftism vs LiberalismPoseidonAwokehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14806975386605873723noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3623603988319454163.post-13071046318005884382015-11-17T14:18:10.789-08:002015-11-17T14:18:10.789-08:00I like what you have written here. My politics hav...I like what you have written here. My politics have been left of center for as long as I have had politics. I have always had sympathy for underdogs, and I can't stand triumphalism. My left blinder, however, was recently ripped off in a verbal attack by people I can now classify as leftists, and I am now trying to make sense of what has been, up until now, obscured.φοιτητήςhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00969614036361178639noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3623603988319454163.post-70227020652696674942015-09-30T15:49:58.275-07:002015-09-30T15:49:58.275-07:00Wow, I can't believe how insanely inaccurate t...Wow, I can't believe how insanely inaccurate this write up is. You've managed to be wrong about nearly every point you tried to make. That's impressive!Godhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00857400605083886120noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3623603988319454163.post-60702789801656166032014-10-30T14:10:23.122-07:002014-10-30T14:10:23.122-07:00Oh, I'm a huge Bull Conner fan. Of course I kn...Oh, I'm a huge Bull Conner fan. Of course I knew there were (and remain) plenty of black restaurants in the South. Just saying, if you find a liberal who will defend freedom of association <em>even if</em> (in the unlikely event) that a black man cannot buy lunch, then you've got a pretty principled liberal.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3623603988319454163.post-30143421935299373312014-10-30T08:46:23.507-07:002014-10-30T08:46:23.507-07:00Yes, I think you can make the case that Bull Conno...Yes, I think you can make the case that Bull Connor was the liberal in 1963. He was defending the liberal right to free association. I think you straw-manned Bull Connor a bit there to get the dramatic starving black man image. :-) Plenty of black restaurants in the South. Segregation wasn't the Holodomor.<br /><br />"Scratch a liberal today, and you'll almost surely find pure leftist blood." Exactly, which is why the Three Atheists are now scratching their heads saying 'How did all these Leftists get into my Atheism?'.<br /><br />There is no such thing as a 'pure' Liberal, because the Liberty/Authority axis is simply the Y-axis overlaying the anti-Gnon/pro-Gnon X-axis.<br /><br />I'm merely trying to distinguish the vectors behind Left-Liberal positions, and to point out that there is a difference between Leftism and Liberalism. And I suppose I am making a bit of a pitch for the use of Liberty to generate meritocracy, and for other purely utilitarian purposes. The Left despises meritocracy and natural spontaneous orders such as racial segregation. Forced integration is an authoritarian response, it is anti-liberal and Leftist.<br /><br />I suppose part of what I'm saying is that allowing spontaneous order (Liberty) has a utilitarian value and that we can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. I agree that anyone who places Liberty as a first order value has it wrong. Liberty cannot be an end in itself, it can only be a means that we employ to capture Gnon. Liberty is a tool not a goal. So, yes, 'Liberalism', meaning the ideology that places Liberty as a primary goal, is wrong; but natural orders can be beneficial and should be exploited wherever possible.<br /><br />The pro-Gnon camp has every bit as much of a reason to squash free speech that promotes Leftist values, but open communication is necessary for feedback loops to occur effectively, so it is often of benefit to allow it. That is a 'liberal' position, I would say, but taken purely for its utility in maintaining effective order. Right-Liberal.PoseidonAwokehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14806975386605873723noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3623603988319454163.post-62319417069572096162014-10-30T08:04:12.278-07:002014-10-30T08:04:12.278-07:00OK, sure: Bull Conner was the liberal in 1963, and...OK, sure: Bull Conner was the liberal in 1963, and all those carpetbagging northerners (<cough><em>joos</em></cough>) were the anti-liberals. If we're going with that, I agree there is some merit to liberalism. Which is to say: Scratch a liberal today, and you'll almost surely find pure leftist blood. As a liberal, even a libertarian, does he believe in the <em>absolute</em> right to free association? If he's willing to concede, yes I do, even if that means a black man can't find a bite to eat in 200 miles along I-40, then OK, he's a truly principled liberal.<br /><br />Of course, I would <em>still</em> say he's wrong. Tho' his is a system of thought that gives no quarter to leftism. Ergo an enemy of my enemy, at least. But still wrong. For the simple fact that Freedom (qua freedom) is not first order principle. As a second order principle (as a consequence of a well ordered, i.e., un-free, values), freedom does amazing things for human flourishing. For example, in matching supplies to demand, finding true and unbiased prices, maximizing the productivity of capital. But as a first order principle: freedom (baby) as unalloyed good, it eats at the social foundations, various particularities which bind people and behaviors at the pre-rational level. It atomizes them, and in so doing makes way for leftism. Which is why Liberté almost never comes along without Égalité nipping at its heels.<br /><br />Definitionally, though, I think you have everything almost exactly right here. I just don't want to give too much quarter to liberalism. It has it's downsides too.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com